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Let's start with "What does the Bible say?"

I can only speculate as to how old the earth is. As your friend at work said, science says that it's been around for billions of years. The actual age of the universe, according to science, is probably around 15 billion years.

The question you are probably asking is this: What does the Bible say? Maybe you were taught that according to the Bible, the earth is only a few thousand years old.

Actually, the Bible doesn't say that. Some guy by the name of Bishop Ussher said the earth began in 4004 B.C. He calculated the genealogies in the Bible and counted backwards to Genesis 1:1.

There's one big problem with that. The Bible doesn't include every genealogy, so it's not possible to use the Bible to determine the exact date. At best, I can say the Bible isn't clear about the age of the earth and the universe. I know for sure that God created the heavens and the earth, but I don't know how much time elapsed between Genesis 1:1 and the other "days" of creation.

And that's the other thing. The Hebrew word for day doesn't necessarily mean 24 hours. It can mean 12 hours, or a longer period of time, such as an age or epoch. The phrase, "the Day of the Lord," often referred to in Bible prophecy, uses the same word for "day" as Genesis 1.

My take on this is that it's unproductive to argue with someone over the age of the earth. Honestly, it doesn't change a thing about God or His creation. Remember, God is eternal. Moses, who wrote Genesis, wrote in Psalm 90, "For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by."

More important than the "when" question is the "who" question. Ask your friend how the universe came to be. If he says God created it, then he's right on the mark. If he says it just happened by chance, then he's way off. That's where you need to be concentrating your efforts. Learn how to answer questions about who created the heavens and the earth rather than when it happened.

Comments

I would highly recommend that anyone interested listen to Ken Ham's lecture "Six Days and the Eisegesis Problem" http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=11606144316

If people are misinterpreting the Bible to make it fit with their preconceived notions of creation, or anything else, then it is productive to talk about.

If you are discussing the issue with people arguing for evolution, do not hesitate to rest your argument on the authority of the Bible.

There's lots of info here http://www.answersingenesis.org/

I like the young earth guys because they take the book of Genesis very seriously. This is where we have to start if we are going to be Biblical believers.
However, I don't think the young earth guys take science seriously. They construct their own scientific theory and do violence to a lot of the evidence for an old earth. I think we need to realize that the age of the earth has been calculated many, many ways. Tree ring analysis goes back about 10,000 years. Ice stratification in Greenland goes back about 300,000 years. Many different kinds of radiometric dating takes us back to an age of about 5 Billion years. I think that these different methods from different disciplines and thousands upon thousands of peer-reviewing scientists are probably giving us accurate estimates.
Now if we take Genesis seriously and the rest of the Bible we find that the Bible tells us that all mankind is descended from Adam, the federal head of the human race. You can add the geneologies up and they appear to be complete and Bishop Usher was close to correct in coming up with about 4000 years of unbroken geneology between Adam and Jesus Christ.
The stories of the Abrahamic patriarchs fit very closely into the cultural patterns that archaeologists have discovered for about 1800 BC. But the archaeologists tell us that agriculture was invented about 8000 BC and that man has been painting caves and burying his dead for at least 50,000 years. Go figure.
I have more questions than answers about this. Here are some very preliminary thoughts as I am presently embarked on a study of these issues.
Biblically, Adam lived about 6000 years ago.
When Cain left the family of Adam to strike out on his own, he was afraid that people would kill him. There appears to have been a society around for Cain to be afraid of.
It is possible that God chose Adam, a member of the human species already extent on the earth and breathed into him the breath of life, making him the first human soul. Perhaps his federal headship was extended to all men on the earth at the time. I find it interesting that no companion was found for him a helper that was suitable for him. Surely the search for a suitable helper was not made among the animal kingdom?
At the present time I can't get my science and my theology on the same page. But I'm convinced that the earth is old and that it has been inhabited by apparent humans for a long time. I'm also convinced that the Bible is true and teaches the true origon of mankind.
For what it's worth.
Daniel

Daniel
May I suggest that you check out the Answers in Genisis.org site if you are finding it hard to get your science and theoolgy on the same page . Everything you mentioned about dating methods,Cain ,ice in Greenland and tree rings has been compellingly addressed by the scientist at AiG.I might suggest you with hold being convinced about a lot of "scientific evidence " until you have a closer look at what additional information exisits and fits with the biblical record. Also, if you believe that the bible is true with respect to the origins of mankind then your belief about apparent humans is unfounded.And can I finish about one firther comment you made. You referenced and bolstered some of your information by saying it was peer reviewed.Somehow having research peer reviewed places the research in an authoritative position of correctness.That does have its merit but it must be remembered that the peers are mere morals that hold to evolutionary worldview bias.If you don't present research within the context of that paradigm but rather reference a creationist or intelligent design model the peers won't likely review your research to begin with.There's too much gatekeeping going on in the academy these past many years.Colssians 2:8-9 says it well.

Cheers,

Willy

I just finished reading your book, "I'm Fine with God... It's Christians I Can't Stand", and I found your comments about creation and the age of the earth again here which are similar to the content of your book. The problem with your rationale about the relative unimportance of a literal interpretation of the Creation account and timetable is that it really is critical in the question of WHO created the universe, which you say is the important point. WHO is the God of the bible - the God who created the universe in 6 literal days a few thousand years ago as He clearly states in His Word! And the plain meaning of the text is crucial to understanding and believing the rest of the message about who we are, what sin is, what the fall was, who Jesus Christ is, what redemption is... etc. It is all founded on a literal interpretation of Genesis 1-3. As believers in the God of the Bible, Science is not our Authority on these matters because Science itself is based on a faith premise - Science is not an impartial, unbiased discipline (I myself work in the field and know firsthand) but is founded on the premise that man can discover truth by observation and experimentation. The God of the Bible says that ultimate Truth is by REVELATION from Him, and I have a hard time with many of the Creationists who try to prove that the Bible is right by scientific methods as I have a problem with people who say they believe God and take Him at His word, but refuse to accept the simple, straightforward account of the beginning of His Created order. There is a religious mixture and a compromise in this way of thinking. Choose your god - the God of the Bible or the god of humanistic reason!

Believe in an old or a young earth; it doesn't matter. The bigger issue we as Christians should be focused on is the naturalism/theism discussion. This is where the rubber meets the road in discussions of origins.

Now, on the issue of Genesis requiring a 7-literal day interpretation, I have to say that contrary to what some say here, good biblical interpretation doesn't commit one to such a reading of Genesis. In fact, I'll argue below that it might count against it. The young earth view began only in the late 1960's or early 1970's. These late origins of the young-earth view don't make it false, but they do certainly undermine the claim, made by some, that this is the way that conservative biblical scholars through the ages have read it. They simply haven't. In fact, for most of the history of the church, an old earth has been the dominant view; no one knew just how old, of course, because modern dating methods hadn't been invented, but the point is there were no thoughts of a young earth, and evidence of an old earth would've been wholly untroubling to them, just as it ought to be for us.

Moreover, most Old Testament scholars (even conservative ones)--people who are specialists in knowing which interpretations of Genesis are most reasonable--do not think the Genesis creation account is even intended on teaching anything at all about the actual length of time in which the earth or the universe was created. It just wasn't important to the author of Genesis nor to his audience. To be sure the creation account DOES mention lengths of time (i.e. "days") but the purpose of such language is not to teach something about how long God spent creating the world. Is there another explanation for the presence of the word translated in English as "day" in Genesis?

To answer that properly, one has to understand how a person in the Ancient Near East (the ANE) would've understood references to "days" in a creation account--after all, Exodus-era Hebrews were the original audience, not us. Among all the creation stories from cultures in the ANE, it was almost ubiquitous to tell the story using 7 days of creation. The creation stories told by Gentile nations contained all sorts of deities corresponding to the various things being created (the moon was actually a moon god, the sun a sun god, the ocean an ocean god, etc.), so you end up with a pantheon of deities in every ANE culture. Except for the Hebrews, whose account would've been understood to be a stark contrast to the accounts told by the other nations. Wholly unprecedented among ANE cultures, the Hebraic creation account is unlike any other: the moon is just the moon, the sun just the sun, the ocean is just another inanimate thing, and on and on; the point of Genesis is that God alone is the creator and he has no rivals. The audience of Genesis (the Hebrews during the Exodus) would've been familiar with other creation accounts--seven days was just the usual literary device used to tell creation stories; plus, the days serve as a mnemonic device to help make such stories memorable in an oral culture (remember, it's not like they had printing presses back then).

Someone from the ANE hearing Genesis would not have been struck by the "seven-day-ness" of the account, nor would they have ever thought its role in the story was to serve as teaching something about the age of the earth. Rather, they would've been struck by the nature and character of the God of Genesis, creating the world under his own power and without rivals, and how utterly different he was from the "gods" of every other culture on earth. In this light, the Genesis account served a polemic purpose, giving the Hebrews an indicator of just how different their God--the true God--was from those of any of their neighbors.

BTW, this is called the "literary framework" account. Evaluate it for yourself, but many conservative OT scholars (I'm talking Wheaton college conservative), hold the view. At the very least, don't think that to consistently be a Bible-believing Christian, you must hold to a 10,000 year old earth.

TX
You failed to document your assertion about the 1960-1970 young earth discovery. Where did you find this information?
Cheers,

WillT

In genesis when it says the world was created in 6 days, it was truly 6 days. it says after each 'day' in creation, "there was evening, and there was morning." One 24 hour day contains 1 evening and 1 morning. Whereas an epoch would contain a number of evenings and mornings or a 12 hour day would contain one and not the other.
Also there are a number of things that would go wrong if there was an extended amount of time between each 'day' if it were extended.
eg. on day 3, when vegetation was created, there are flowers that require the pollination of bees to survive. and bees werent created until day 6. So in order for these plants to survive, there would have to be a shorter period of time than 3 ages.

You can't be serious! The idea of "god" is a man made mechanism for understanding the questions of life pre science. Simple as that, I find it very difficult to comprehend that there are still people in this age that believe in this conscious, sentiant creator nonsense. For "gods" sake get a grip and look at actual undisputable FACTS!

oh yes, we're quite serious. and probably smarter than you are. facts are, there are signposts that point to a conscious sentient creator. if you don't realize that, then its hard for ME to believe that there are people like YOU who come to these Christian websites to talk smack with absolutely nothing to back up their claims. Your in hostile territory, bud. Get some.

The literary genre of Genesis is complex - but certainly the creation story is poetic in form. (Note that there is also the apparent evidence of a combining of two different versions - or two stories together.) All this to say: at very least, the first chapters of Genesis are not science. Science did not even exist until post-enlightenment times. This is not to say that truth or a way of discovering and communicating truth did not exist. Art, for instance, communicates truth in a very different way than science. However, even in this day and age you would be considered a fool if you believed that art was incapable of containing and divulging truth. Genesis is true - and it is the very Word of God - but like every book it is constrained to communicate truth by limited means. It can't simultaneously live in every Genre. I would argue that it communicates theology (information about God) in the form of poetry. One who wishes to get it's message must understand what it is and is not attempting to say. For example: if you read TS Elliot as science you'll miss the entire point. If you read a grammar book as fiction you'll be sourly disappointed with the stories (and learn nothing it was designed to teach you). Genesis too can be mauled by a modern reader attempting to extract the scientific 'data' from the text. It's just not meeting the text on its terms -and it's an approach that will continue to lead to intellectual dissonance and confusion.
In conclusion: it may not feel as satisfying to not fill in all the unknowns of our origins with the details of Genesis; but it's ultimately more intellectually and spiritually satisfying to acknowledge the great mysteries that cradle the very existence of man -trusting in only one thing: (not the knowledge we have of the details, our methods of discovery, or our sound reasoning) but in God. A God who is so gracious as to communicate himself to us - yes in the words of scripture - and ultimately in the person of Christ.

Hey Ideas

You say the creation story is certainly poetic in form.I've been an educator for many years now and I like it when people who make assertions verify or document the research upon which they make overarching claims.I have a question for you.What form of poetry is being used in the Genisis creation story?How do you know this. I realize that poetry is a form of writing that often relies on imagery to make a point.So I have another question for you . In your poetic reading of the creation story did God make Adam from the dust of the ground or is this poetic? ust wondering how the poetic language is to be handled.Please respond.

Cheers,

Will

Richard
Your're probably ticked off with Christians.I'm curious to know at what point in your life did you decide to commmit yourself to an atheistic poistion? (I'm assuming by your comments that you hold to an atheist position) I don't want to argue ,just curious.

Cheers,
Will

Why does science and faith have to be at odds? As stated in an earlier post, there are many conservative Old Testament Hebrew scholars who believe that the language of Genesis can properly be interpreted to mean long periods of time. I was a convinced young earth believer but could never reconcile my scientific understanding with that belief. Therefore, since I must believe the Bible, science must be wrong or it interpreted incorrectly. However, after reading and studying the old earth information, I am now convinced that it is the correct position. The Bible and science can and are both correct. I do not believe in evolution, or that God chose some point in human evolution to breathe a spiritual soul into some humanoid walking around at the time.

There is much scientific evidence saying the universe is very old. This does not contradict the Bible. One need not choose between science or the Bible. God does tell us that the universe and all that is in it reveals that He exists and has created it all.

Please have an open mind in this area of secondary doctrine. As stated above, the age of the universe does not change any major doctrine. Yet by trying to declare science false only gives Christians a bad name. Good science and good theology are both important for Christians.

Check out some of the great (and convincing) information at reasons.org. The people there are experts in their fields: astronomy, biology, etc. Many have doctorate degrees. They want to know the truth. Since all truth is God's truth, if it is scientifically true, then that is God's truth also. The Bible tells us to have a reasonable faith, not a leap of faith into the dark.

Seek the truth;

Bernie

"Honestly, it doesn't change a thing about God or His creation"

I'm sure you've heard this argument before, but the sin of Adam and Eve brought death and suffering, so how could billions of years existed before this? Are Adam and Eve a billion year-old story? How many deaths happened before Adam and Eve in the world that God created good? Millions of years of death and suffering in a freshly created good world made by our all powerful God? Sounds sketchy to me...

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