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Last week I wrote a blog about Christians supporting torture. If you peeled back my very thick skull, here’s what you would have seen inside my brain: Mark reading about the Bush Administration debating their torture program . . . Mark thinking about 78% of Evangelical Christians voting for Bush . . . Mark believing that they must feel so sorry now . . . Mark reading a new survey showing Evangelicals support torture . . . Mark writing my blog and intending to title it “Evangelicals Should Feel Free to Torture Bush”. . . Mark using his brain, thinking twice, and changing the title. (DISCLAIMER: I am not a theologian, nor have I ever played one on TV. I am a curious person who would like to discuss the issue. I am not trying to offend you and I do not want to tarnish your sterling worldview.) My Facebook lit up with some pointed comments from a variety of people. As I sifted through, it struck me that some believe that if God does something, we can do it also. So, if God sends some people to hell, we can send people to . . . Texas? Or more specifically, if God tortures people in hell, it’s ok to torture people on earth. The idea being, “if he does it, it must be ok for us to do it.” This, to be quite honest, got me thinking. So, I looked up Bible verses about hell. I found fourteen in all, twelve that were part of Jesus’ teaching. The trouble was, every time Jesus was talking about hell, he was talking to religious people. He was warning the Pharisees (REALLY religious people), his disciples, etc. His biggest concern seemed to be hypocrisy, not unreligious people. What the heck? I was looking for him to be pointing a huge, trembling finger at terrible people who eat babies and drive Hummers. Instead, he seemed to be pointing his finger at me. SSSSnnnaaappp!!! But what about the other point? If God does something (and I’m not sure he does), does that make it ok for us to do it? I don’t feel very comfortable with that view, either. It would seem that God can do lots of things I can’t do. I mean beyond creating things out of nothing, being everywhere at once, counting angels on pins, etc. He can discern a man’s heart perfectly. He can judge with absolute certainty. He can understand the depths of a person’s heart. While I would like to think that I can judge/discern/understand, the sad truth is, I can’t. Come to think of it, that takes us back to the first point. When Jesus warned of hell, he was talking to people who DID think they could act just like God, who judged/discerned/understood enough to throw stones and kill people. I don’t want to run with that crowd. So, I’m honestly not sure what to think. But I really appreciated the comments and I’m glad that I was provoked to try to think it through. I would love to hear your thoughts on this, as we dialogue towards an understanding. What do you think? |
Comments
Many evangelicals think that God condemns unbelievers to eternal suffering in hell AND that God is perfectly righteous. This is troubling, insofar as these people arguably have a monstrous role model.
All you sane, reflective people out there: please cease lending respectability to this crap. Denounce Christianity or rebuke your fellow Christians.
Been there, thought that. Sometimes Christianity does seem like a crock full of s....
There is always plenty of rebuking of christians. (Christians are good at rebuking one another.)
There's actually a lot of very well written information debating that premise. (This blog has some great stuff on this as well.) Keep searching for the answer to that. Keep arguing against God. Stay passionate for wanting an answer. Denounce Christianity all you want. God will meet you where you're at. It's the passion to understand that can lead you to a relationship with your creator.
http://www.conversantlife.com/blogs/brett+kunkle
This is part of the balance I'm wresting with as well. It can be frustrating, but as a community, we need to dialogue and at least agree to disagree. I'm not sure that rebuking people will help, though I guess it depends on your manner of rebuke.
I also want to encourage you to remember all the good things that are happening. The Body of Christ is engaging social issues in a new way. Lots to be encouraged about!
Mark,
This is a perfect example of when communicating by blog isn't as effective as in person.
My reference to "rebuking christians" is a completely sarcastic comment. I absolutely don't think we should rebuke christians who may have a different point of view, but unfortunately christians rebuke one another all the time. (I saw your last post with a "friendly" comment from a believer.)
I just wanted reader to know that is OK to rebuke christianity. Passion is important. I have been there. There's a ton of passion happening in our culture right now. The polarization of ideas and values could ultimately eliminate apathy. I think that's a characteristic of the end times.
I read your posts all the time. Thank you for your thought provoking insights.
Sorry for the misread! So true, things get lost in the text. Thanks for your encouragement. I saw your Emerson quote. I'm a big fan of him also.
I think man's attempt to apply justice can not be compared with an infinite God.
Society has to operate in some orderly fashion. Would God issue a speeding ticket? Would God make you pay your mortgage on time? No. He's paid the price for all of us. Doesn't that seem like a ridiculous argument?
So is the argument that
God would torture because of sin, therefore we can torture? or
God would not torture because he is forgiving, therefore we should not torture?
Have I made any sense? I'm not sure. I'm just thinking this through.
To the reader who calls all sane, reflective folks to denounce the irrationality of Christ: I understand where you're coming from. I'm a rationalist by nature whose life and soul happened to be apprehended by an irrational gospel. It makes no sense to me either; Jesus Christ and his claims ARE offensive. I can only say I haven't been duped by the religious right, haven't been brainwashed by evangelical propaganda, haven't been lied to by crazy religious parents, haven't been hoodwinked by my own search for meaning. I've been on this journey for a very long time, asking the same questions that you've asked. But if you look at the lives of people Jesus Christ has changed (not the hypocrites or the wackos or the fringe, but the real deal) you will see something remarkable, self-sacrificing, and yes, even totally irrational. I'm afraid that's me. How can you ask me to denounce something that miraculous and that beautiful?
Please don't get me wrong: most Christians are quite decent folks. Moreover, there have always been those who have found ways to take Christianity seriously in ways that were personally wholesome and attractive. But I don't know whether it is these individuals or their wacko fundamentalist brethren who are the anomaly. If it is the former, then Christianity itself contains the disease, although some Christians are immune because of remarkable sensibilities of their own. In characterizing the miraculous and beautiful features of Christianity as "totally irrational," I suspect that you are among those with remarkable sensibilities. But this does not recommend Christianity. With irrationality at one's disposal, one can construct beauty out of Mein Kampf. Even without aid of irrationality, there are still plenty of beautiful and inspiring aspects of Christianity. But this also does little to recommend it. There were plenty of beautiful and inspiring aspects of antebellum plantation life in the South. The trick, I think, is to find a rational (i.e., coherent) way to interpret and follow Christianity that is also morally appealing, all things considered. If this cannot be found, it may be best to denounce Christianity. To do otherwise is to endorse a doctrine that will lead other to follow it to its wacko conclusions. It is to make oneself the host of a disease to which only you are immune.
This is a good dialogue. I appreciate your patient, non-offensive way of "listening" and how you take the time to explain your position so well (Most comment threads aren't nearly so civil :) I also see that we both love language and use it to sort out our thoughts.
I think, though, that we might never reach a common ground; in part because you place more value on man's philosophy and rationality, and I place more value on the unknowables. I really believe in God's goodness and justice, and you see certain features of Christianity as morally reprehensible. That may never change, but folks like us can still learn from each other, eh? Thanks for engaging me in our discussion here :)
I've been sitting back enjoying both of your posts. You both write so well! Enjoying the dialogue.
Bluediamond, yes, I think I'm tracking with you. In some strange sense, we can't live our lives by looking to God for an example. He is simply "too other" for us. I guess that's part of the beauty of Christ's life. God took on flesh and lived out a life that I can connect with and believe in. Funny, though, to think that God is not a good role model, in some sense. He's just too different and we are not nearly enough.
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